ELCA Women's Study

9/26/2014

Posted on the internet by a Lutheran pastor -

I'm looking for resources on the dangers of inter-faith dialogue that can help me explain at a basic level to my parishioners why it is not bigoted or unloving to say on the basis of scripture that faith in Christ Jesus is the one and only way to salvation.
This month I teach all the women's circles in my congregation and once again I'm dismayed at the ELCA women's study. This first month is about the conversion of Paul and focuses on an analysis of the human experience of conversion, lifting up examples of other faith conversions, Jewish, Buddhist, Islam with the implication that these are all legitimate paths to God.
The author compares the influence of Paul and Augustine and their influence on the Christian church with a middle ages Muslim named al-Ghazali who "influenced Islam and helped Muslims relate to God both intellectually and emotionally."
She goes on to give another example of "a person who grew up Lutheran was taught that only Christians are "saved" joins a Jewish-Christian weekly Bible study and comes to appreciate the worth of other paths to God, while remaining a loyal Lutheran."
My first impulse is to rave and rant but I know the best course is to teach them out of error. Any suggestions? Please pray for me:-)

19 Comments

John

9/27/2014 02:57:13 am

Dear Lutheran Pastor,
I will pray for you and your parishioners. Oh, the times, oh the morals! Here are some resources to start the 'conversation' among your circles: "And Ruth said, Intreat me not to leave thee, or to return from following after thee: for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God." (Ruth 1:16). "Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Savior; there is none beside me." (Isaiah 45:21). "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6). " Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." (Acts 4:12). "... we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." (1 Cor 8:4-6).
Dear Pastor, you have a rich resource in God's holy Word. You also have a rich resource in God's people, the holy Christian church. Please reach out to Lutheran CORE (http://www.lutherancore.org/) for resources to support you in bringing Christian truth to your ELCA parishioners. God bless you.

Kathy Suarez

9/27/2014 05:35:32 am

The Catholic Church has a very clear teaching on this subject (CCC #839-848) which would be very helpful to this poor man.

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

Fred

9/28/2014 07:33:45 pm

"Kathy" how is this at all different or useful - this is EXACTLY why their was a Reformation to begin with!

You cannot be "achieve", merit, or earn eternal salvation by following your "conscience", the law or by your "good" works!

If this were so, then Christ died in vain (as Paul says in Scripture!)

The Roman Church is teaching here the same thing as the ELCA's "any path to God" crap! In fact, the Roman Catholic Church is the chief promoter of this kind of heresy!

According to "Kathy", the Roman Catholic Church, and the Pope, you don't need Christ at all to be saved - you just need to follow your "conscience"!

Good gracious - isn't this exactly what this "woman's study" group is saying that the Buddists, Mohammadians, etc are doing - just following what their head says is "correct"!

The Roman Church is guilty of the heresy of Peligianism - hense the on going need for the teaching of the pure Gospel!

Here is the Gospel: Your sins - ALL OF THEM; Past, Present and Future - have been UNCONDITIONAL FORGIVEN on account of Jesus Christ!

You have NOTHING to do with this - this is an act that was done externally to you by a sovereign God acting out of his perfect justice, love, mercy and forgiveness!

What "Kathy" is posting here from the Roman Catholic Cat. is saying that you are saved by what you do (works) and NOT by Christ!

We are not saved by the law or our works! Nor does anyone "achieve" eternal salvation by their own actions!

What Rome is teaching here is Aristotle NOT Jesus Christ crucified!

If could keep the law in their own person then what is Christ doing on the Cross for gosh-sakes!

God's standard for righteousness under the law is PERFECTION - that is why Christ and Christ-alone is the fulfillment of the law!

God does not "grade on a curve" or "save" you for being a slightly less-awful sinner then your neighbor!

You are saved by Christ's work not yours!

You are saved by faith (trust) alone in Christ!

Kathy and Rome do not preach the "one true gospel" but another gospel!

Here is some accurate information about the Satanic nature of the false teachings of Rome spread through the office of the Anti-Christ (aka pope):

Mostly recently, Pope Francis has issued such a “pious sounding opinion” in which he asserted that “the mercy of God has no limits if one turns to him with a sincere and contrite heart; the question for one who doesn’t believe in God lies in obeying one’s conscience.”

According to the pope, you do not need to believe in God, let alone Jesus, to be saved. All that is necessary is to “obey one’s conscience.”

The Catechism of the Catholic Church affirms this teaching when it says that those

"who through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience- those too may achieve eternal salvation."

The idea that salvation exists for those who haven’t heard the Gospel is pleasing enough to the rational mind.

But this teaching is problematic because it contracts Scripture, which asserts that Jesus alone is the way to the Father, apart from Whom there is no salvation; that our works count for nothing before God, and if they did, then Christ died for nothing (John 14:6, Acts 4:12, Romans 3:20, Galatians 2:21).

One way Satan has gotten us to lower our defenses against false doctrine is by shifting the way we speak of it.

No longer do we commonly refer to those who teach false doctrine as being “bewitched” (Gal 3:1), or practitioners of the satanic arts. Instead, we have adopted language that puts false doctrine on equal footing as the truth of the Gospel."

http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=32847

Yes, some in the ELCA are going astray but its because they are following the same lies and errors that the Roman Catholic Church has been promoting for centuries - that our "work" and the law will save us instead of Christ!

This Pastor, if he is indeed Lutheran, should pick up his Book of Concord and read up on the Augustana, the Smalkald Articles and the Formula of Concord and he will have all the clarity he needs on what the Scriptures say about salvation by Faith alone in Christ alone by God's Grace alone apart from "good works" or the law!

Kathy

9/29/2014 06:17:14 am

Fred, you are misunderstanding the teachings of the Catholic Church. The Catechism is clear that we are saved by faith and not works.

L McDowell

9/29/2014 09:13:10 am

I'm so glad you responded to Kathy! You speak truth! Thank you!!

9/30/2014 02:47:46 am

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. "Since "without faith it is impossible to please [God]" and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'"

Catechism of the Catholic Church, #161

10/2/2014 08:52:14 pm

"Kathy" you are saved by Christ.

You are not saved by your "faith" or by your "works" but by Christ crucified - period.

Faith is a gift given to you by the Holy Spirit, not simply a human work you perform (see CCC 154 "Faith is a human act") as you try to "obtain" your own salvation.

Faith simply receives (trusts) what Christ all did to obtain your salvation for you!

So when the Scripture use the phrase that as in Romans
So when the Scriptures speak of being saved by faith alone in Christ alone, they mean you trust in the external actions of Christ not your own wise "choice" to simply acknowledge the historical fact of His existence.

10/2/2014 08:54:58 pm

"Kathy" if you think the Roman Catholic Church teaches that you are saved by faith alone on account of Christ alone you are either a fool or a liar (or both) - the Truth is not in you.

Just from you CCC quote we can see that YOU save yourself by YOUR actions. Christ does nothing to save you!

"Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation"

This makes faith into a human work!

For the Roman Catholic, "faith" is not trust in Christ's atonement for ALL your sins on the Cross but mere historical knowledge that must be added to the checklist of works need to OBTAIN your own salvation.

The fact of the matter is that Christ alone OBTAINED your salvation by going to the cross and taking your sins and your punishment for your sins with him.

Faith is trust in what Christ did to save you while you are an ungodly sinner - not simply another thing that must be done for you to OBTAIN salvation for yourself!

And what is "obtaining" if not a work or action by humans?

So on your checklist of works to do, having "faith" is one more thing you must do. This turns Gospel into Law and the "Good News" into bad news!

So in the Roman Catholic, you save yourself by your works and this language of "obtaining", "attained" or "obtain" is all human performance language which confirm that.

Here is a nice passage from the CCC that about how you can "obtain" an "indulgence" so that the "good works" of other can help you "obtain" your salvation - without Christ doing a darn thing!

"1477 “This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable, and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission the Father entrusted to them.

In this way they attained their own salvation."

Here is the Roman Catholic "salvation plan" that must be followed for you to "obtain" your salvation by your own hand:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7kiJg_zbgtw/TKLwFYxcwpI/AAAAAAAAAI4/GdfxJG_GvyU/s1600/RCC-Justification-Flow-Chart-150-DPI.jpg

Note the prominent absence of Christ from this - in other words, according the Roman Catholic Church everything is up to you to "obtain" salvation and heaven!

G G Liddy

10/2/2014 08:57:20 pm

I'm so glad you responded to Kathy AGAIN! You speak truth!

We are not save by what we do - even our faith - but by what Christ does for us!

Thank you!!

10/4/2014 09:07:16 am

Fred, the CCC is translated into English (and all other languages) from Latin. "Obtaining" is a convenient word in translation. Don't take it so literally. And Fred, I am not a "fool or a liar" -- that is pretty rude.

Brian

10/5/2014 05:57:56 am

"Anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell." (Matthew 5:22)

10/5/2014 10:00:20 am

Fred's god punishes the good with eternal torture because they are imperfect, and rewards the wicked with eternal bliss, provided only that they TRUST they will not be punished. This despite the fact that the Apology says that God REQUIRES the righteousness of reason (article IV, section 22), and in at least four places it asserts that faith cannot coexist with mortal sin (sections 48, 64, 115, 144).

10/5/2014 11:36:49 am

Fred, thanks for making such a clear and consistent presentation of the Gospel, and for posting the RCC flow chart -- we can use it to contrast the mess of legalism versus the purity of the Gospel.
Kathy, your last post seems to admit we cannot pursue the CCC any farther at this point. Why not try Scripture instead? What does the Bible say about how we can be saved? John 3:16 is a great place to start reading, also Paul's letters to the Romans, Ephesians, and Galatians. I hope you will find what what you're looking for there.

Didaskalos link

9/27/2014 07:32:42 am

Expect the ELCA -- a la the Jesus Seminar -- to bring up a new convention resolution to strike Jesus' words in John 14:6 from the ERSV (ELCA Revised Standard Version). While they're at it, they'd better expunge Paul's words in Acts 4:12, too.

The new ERSV "translation" of John 14:6 will read something like, "I [Jesus} am one of the many ways, one of many truths, and a life you could admire if you feel so inclined. Everyone comes to the Father, whether by me, Buddha, Krishna, Gaia, Sophia, Baal, Asherah, Allah, Voltaire, Nietzsche, Charles Darwin, Stephen Hawking, Carl Sagan, Margaret Sanger, or any other trendy -ism that floats your boat."

9/29/2014 03:37:09 am

"Commenting on (Galatians) verse 2 specifically, Luther emphasized Paul’s strict delineation between justification by faith through hearing the Gospel or justification by works of the Law.

In so doing, he established a clear order for receiving the Spirit and producing His fruits: hearing the Word with faith then doing good works. (Lectures on Galatians, LW 26:202-204)

Since, according to Luther, St. Paul was referring to the manifestation of the Spirit in the early church, he turned toward the Book of Acts.

Dr. Luther states unequivocally that Acts teaches that the Holy Spirit comes by the hearing of the Gospel and not through the Law.

He asserts that numerous sermons from that book demonstrate this truth. Examples include Peter’s preaching by which the Holy Spirit converted thousands (Acts 2:41) and Cornelius’ and other Gentiles’ reception of the Holy Spirit through Peter’s preaching (Acts 10:44). Paul and Barnabas also preached to the Gentiles with similar results (Acts 13:6-12). Luther summarized: “Therefore in the entire Book of Acts, taken as a whole, nothing is discussed except the Jews as well as the Gentiles, righteous men as well as sinners, are to be justified solely by faith in Jesus Christ, without Law or works.” (LW 26:205)

Luther bolstered his arguments with examples of Gentiles’ faith in God and then he contrasted this teaching with his papal opponents’ doctrine.......... Luther explained that these Gentiles received the same faith as the Hebrew patriarchs through hearing with faith and not by following the Law. (LW 26:209-12)

According to Dr. Luther, human reason finds it very difficult to grasp the truth that people receive the Holy Spirit through hearing with faith and not by doing something.

The devil encourages a false opinion toward the faith and works as we struggle to believe God’s promise.

The magnitude of the gift makes it difficult for sinners to receive it freely without earning it.

This also causes some to despise it.

Therefore, Luther asserts that believers must learn that God’s gives them the Holy Spirit, Christ, and forgiveness freely through hearing with faith.

They must not listen to reason that exhorts sinners to strive toward righteousness and salvation by their own powers. Paul rejected this notion. Jesus commended Mary, Martha’s sister, for sitting at his feet and simply listening to His teaching. (Luke 10:41-42) Luther concluded:

Therefore, a Christian is made, not by working but by listening. And so anyone who wants to exert himself toward righteousness must first exert himself in listening to the Gospel. Now when he has heard and accepted this, let him joyfully give thanks to God, and let him exert himself in good works that are commanded in the Law; thus the Law and the works will follow hearing with faith.

(LW 26:214-15. I slightly changed the translation based on the Latin text in WA 40/I:345).

In his concluding remarks on Galatians 3:2 Luther emphasized the struggle within the godly between the hearing of faith and the works of the Law.

The conscience constantly berates the believer because of the supposed easiness of salvation.

Luther attributed this internal fight to lack of understanding and weak faith.

However, he taught that as faith increased then the Christian’s estimation of the Law’s righteousness decreased.

Faith only increases through listening to God’s word."

http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=37956

Karen

9/29/2014 11:08:47 am

Dear Lutheran Pastor,
Why are you still in the ELCA? LCMC offers the freedom to preach the truth of the Word. Why stay with an organization which is clearly (and your comments seem to support that you think so too ) professes apostasy?

Mark Stillman

10/5/2014 06:08:14 am

"Jesus said to his Jews: 'The law was for servants; love God as I love him, as his son. What are morals to us sons of God?' " (Friedrich Nietzsche, "Beyond Good and Evil" #164)

Being the son of a Lutheran minister, Nietzsche thoroughly understood popular Lutheranism.

Janet Muldoon

10/6/2014 09:04:59 am

Christians are saved by faith which is a free gift given to us by Jesus Christ, the true son of God. However, faith without works is nothing. Good works are the manifestion of true faith. It results as a fruit of walking in faith.

10/8/2014 01:18:58 am

"...every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them." (Matthew 7:17-20)

"If you know that [God] is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him." (1 John 2:29)

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