ELCA Teaching that I'm Sure the Devil Loves

05/21/2010

No need to believe in Jesus. Believe whatever you want! ELCA seminary professor, David J. Lull, says you are going to heaven no matter what.

This is Part 2 (see Part 1) of an examination of Dr. David J. Lull, Professor of New Testament at Wartburg Theological Seminary series of lectures in January 2010 titled, "Preaching Lent and Easter."

The following are quotes from Dr. Lull's lectures -

"For the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life a ransom [lytron] for many (Mk 10.45) - The term 'many' is not restrictive, as if it meant 'to give his life as a ‘ransom’ for some but not all'; rather, it is equivalent to 'all': 'to give his life as a ‘ransom’ for all.' And we know that 'all means all': not just Christians, or believers, or good people, but all people." (pages 6-7)

"We need to pause a moment to consider another reason why I’m skipping over the important ecumenical discussion of 'the doctrine of justification.' I have come to believe that, as important as that Reformation doctrine is, along with the partial rapprochement between Lutherans and Roman Catholics on that doctrine—to which the Methodists have added their affirmation—that doctrine’s vision of salvation is too limited. It isn’t big enough to encompass those who are sinned against: the innocent poor, especially the poorest among the poor; the innocent victims of violence in their homes, communities; innocent victims of war; innocent
victims of genetic malfunctions and disease; innocent victims of ordinary accidents; and innocent creatures who are victims of ecological injustice. The list could go on. These innocent victims do not need forgiveness for their plight!" (page 3-4)

"God’s salvation is for 'all.' The problem is that Paul wrote that 'if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.' Doesn’t that mean salvation is only for confessing Christians? But Paul also quoted Isa 28.16: 'No one who believes in him [that is, God] will be put to shame.'
And Joel 2.32: 'Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord [that is, God] shall be saved.' Also, remember that this section of Romans begins with 'the righteousness that
comes from faith says…' (Rom 10.6). For Paul, a monotheistic Jew, that means faith in God." (page 12)

"Jesus did not have to die as a condition of God’s forgiveness of sins. Mark knew that Jesus knew that God had always forgiven the sins of “many/all,” and that God would keep on forgiving their sins." (page 9)

Dr. Lull teaches the future pastors of the ELCA, and has been for many years. If the students believe this teaching of universal salvation then when they are pastors they will not be telling anyone about the truth of salvation in Jesus Christ. The lost will remain lost, just as the devil wants.

Comments

readselerttoo

05/21/2010 11:10

Dr. Lull is one example of Lutheran seminaries tenuring instructors who come from a different confessional tradition than ours. Dr. Lull is a Methodist. When the doctrine of justification is falsely interpreted by those who have no idea what the doctrine purports, then we wind up disseminating false information from someone who is not familiar with the Lutheran Confessions. As an ELCA pastor who has experienced this first hand in other contexts, I am committed in my own small way to interpreting correctly what the New Testament says about justification by faith. Justification means that someone else (Jesus)has become my vindicator against sin and evil in my life. Faith receives what is promised. I doubt a Methodist could understand this basic New Testament lesson.

Dr. Lull purports a politic which does not square with the New Testament. Jesus was about saving and forgiving individuals and not groups of people (the so-called "Poor") Feeding the hungry, etc are commandments for us, yes, but only God can separate out the sheep from the goats. We try to manage that by way of our politiking, persuasions and rhetoric. This is blasphemous against God's own judgments to which we are not privy.

Dan Skogen link

05/21/2010 16:53

I agree with your thoughts and Dr. Lull is a Methodist teaching at a ELCA seminary. I would add that there are many professors/pastors/bishops in the ELCA that are also teaching universal salvation. It can even find this on the ELCA official website. Here is more information on the ELCA and universal salvation - http://www.exposingtheelca.com/on-universal-salvation.html

readselerttoo

05/22/2010 13:13

re Dr. Lull's statement: "God’s salvation is for 'all.' The problem is that Paul wrote that 'if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.' Doesn’t that mean salvation is only for confessing Christians? But Paul also quoted Isa 28.16: 'No one who believes in him [that is, God] will be put to shame.'
And Joel 2.32: 'Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord [that is, God] shall be saved.' Also, remember that this section of Romans begins with 'the righteousness that
comes from faith says…' (Rom 10.6). For Paul, a monotheistic Jew, that means faith in God." (page 12) end of Lull's statement.

Here is another way of countering any concern over universal salvation. I do not believe that is what the NT is saying. Yes, it is true that Christ died for the sins of all people. But it doesn't follow that all will be saved. The offer is made to all people through Christ's death and resurrection. The Gospel is proffered to others. The others must receive it.
That is why mission is so important and preaching also. No one gets what God offers if one doesn't believe that it is meant for him/her.

Those who support universal salvation have not read the NT clearly or closely enough. The problem with most Protestants is that in their official theology (unlike the Lutheran Confessions) once saved always saved.
Lutherans believe that we are both totally saints and sinners at the same time. It will not be until the last judgment that God will sort out the righteous from the unrighteous. We so-called Christians will be judged also in this way.
One must believe what is offered and as P. Melanchthon says: "to know Christ is to know his benefits." Christ's benefits in his death and resurrection are offered to all but that doesn't equate that all will be saved. One can refuse what is offered.

When St. Paul talks about God he is talking about the one God in Jesus Christ. The quotation that Lull issues from Isaiah about all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved refers to the one God whom Judeo-Christians worship. Others who do believe or trust in this saving God will not be saved. 'All' doesn't mean collective all but each individual who is struck by this God in faith will be saved. "Everyone who believes" doesn't mean everyone but each person who is more correct.

Good blog...keep up the good fight.

Dr. Lull twists the words of Scripture to suit his own bias.

Sarah

12/02/2010 06:06

Thank you to those who wrote correcting Dr. Lull's twisting of the Gospels. I've been deeply submerged in God's Word for many years, feel that the Holy Spirit has guided me towards understanding scriptural truth, but haven't been able to find a church whose mission statement and/or de facto practices reflect true and pure scriptural doctrine.

I so very much want to find a Pastor who can offer inspirational support and a church family with whom I can worship and fellowship - in the TRUTH of the full Gospels. I live in the San Fernando Valley and have attended so many lukewarm Churches, in the valley and in the city, that I'm beginning to think I can't find a true Church in all of LA County.

Someone, please help! I absolutely believe in individual, not collective, salvation, through Jesus Christ, and agree that THIS is why evangelism is so important. Yes, I so heartily agree, that Christ offered the gift of His Salvation to all, but that not all will accept this gift - - - in order to receive the gift that is offered, one MUST accept it by confessing openly that salvation, forgiveness of sin and acceptance into Heaven and into eternal bliss with God come ONLY through Jesus Christ.

I also believe that only Christ, not a priest or a pastor, can forgive sins. The 'what you loose will be loosed and what you bound will be bound' phrase in scripture, may refer to many things the apostles had control over, but I don't believe that forgiveness of sins is one of them, or at least not one that continues to anyone in generations past the apostles themselves, to whom that authority was given, directly. If I am wrong, I'm open to having someone try to make a CONVINCING argument for why I should change my mind.

A First Christian Church I've gone to in the past, believes that not the pastor, but only Christ, forgives, which is the good news. The bad news is that most of the congregation has a 'universal salvation' mindset, believing that Mohammed or Buddha are equivalent paths to God and that we shouldn't offend our Muslim or Buddhist brothers by proclaiming that Christ is the only path to God. So, the pastor preaches to those who already believe in Christ, but this church has no evangelical outreach to non-believers, but will fellowship with them, with absolutely ZERO evangelical fervor, for inter-faith 'good works', like food pantries, etc. These are dead works, because the first work of proclaiming Christ, is left undone. On the day of judgement, scripture tell us that God will spit these workers of iniquity out of his mouth, and when they remind him of all their 'good works', He will say, 'I never knew you....'. Because of many of the congregants denying that Christ is the only path to God, as evidenced in their refusal to tell their Muslim interfaith council friends this truth , I cannot continue to worship there.

Last year, I was so happy with the basic confesesion of faith at a WELS Lutheran Church in North Hollywood, until I discovered that part of the creed is that the pastor himself can forgive sin. Now I feel I cannot continue to worship there, either. Can anyone recommend where I could go in LA, to find a church where these two creeds are not in conflict, and that might ALSO have traditional hymns - I truly dislike the repetetive, vapid words and music that's played in more modern services - it detracts from the focus of my worship.

The traditional hymns enhance the focus of my worship, because they are so musically beautiful and the words are so much stronger, spiritually intense and more eloquently poetic than in the modern hymns.

Any recommendations for a Church in the LA area? If not in LA - does anyone know of a place of TRADITIONAL, solidly bible-based worship, with the old hymns, ANYWHERE in So Cal, or the entire state of California? How about in the entire USA, or even the world? Any left AT ALL?

Help! - Thanks and God Bless - Sarah

Brent

04/23/2013 16:43

Regarding the minister forgiving sins, my understanding of the matter is that it is God who forgives the sins of anyone who confesses his sin (see I John 1:9). The minister merely declares God's forgiveness to the individual with a troubled conscience. The minister acts only as a spokesman, or at most (in the case of individual confession), a judge of the genuineness of one's repentance.

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